I've found a bit of a conundrum with the voice actors for Russell and Lori in the original Japanese version of the series. By definition all other voice actors present in the Japanese version are labelled as seiyuu and categorized/referred to as such. However, so far as I can tell the Andrew Bongiorno and Tellina Lee don't actually live and work in Japan (unlike Jeff Manning, albert's japanese voice) so overall it is probably more appropriate to call them voice actors. Currently they are categorized as VAs (presumably for this reason) but as a result andrew was incorrectly referred to as russells english dub actor.
Long story short, should they be included in the seiyuu navbox/category since they're part of the original japanese dub, or should they stay in the english va cat and navbox since they don't strictly fit the definition of seiyuu?
I think if we go with the latter though we need to do something to make it clearer that they're not part of the Eng dub like the other VAs, though I'm not quite sure what we could do,,,
I hear what you're saying and yes, the reason I listed them as VAs is because they speak English in both Japanese and English versions of the anime. In List of Voice Actors, I made a point of listing Bongiorno as part of the Japanese version to clarify. If you think that's sufficient, we can add that in "small" type to his infobox and say so in text. Or...we can add him to seiyuu and stipulate, in "small" type, that he speaks English in the medium and say so in text (which would likely be the same wording per the alternative suggestion). Or...we can list him on one/both charts saying: (English dialogue - Japanese version).
I'm not sure where you got the info that they're in both the original Japanese version AND the English dub because all sources I can find say that they're only present in the JP version while Christopher Bevins and Rachel Robinson are their Eng dub actors? I can't check my dvd to audibly compare at the moment but I do recall people previously remarking that it was odd they took out the original Australian actors from the JP version and used American actors in the dub.
I think listing them on the English VA list/navbox is probably most appropriate going off the strict definitions between seiyuu and VA, and the (English dialogue - Japanese version) declaration you suggested should probably make it clear enough for most readers that they're in the JP version rather than the dub.
You're correct about the actors. My bad. Could you please take care of this edit? My computer is having fits again so I'm editing via tablet and only doing a few edits per day. I should be good by Friday and back to editing VAs. Also, remember that you agreed to leave the VA pages to me. I was doing fine with editing ages and other things. You agreed so please abide. Thanks. Angelle 16:58, August 1, 2020 (UTC)
I did agree, however you said I was free to edit the VA pages when you were "done" and had moved on to the next VA page. I went over several such pages and found quite a few still held inaccurate ages, factual issues, naming errors, and/or formatting issues that were unattended to so I cleaned them up, that's all.
By the way, I'm still working on the English VAs category, but if you want to review the Seiyuu pages, they're "done" unless I forgot something. I should have mentioned that to you as soon as I completed editing that category, but didn't. Hence, I take responsibility for failing to communicate sufficiently. So you know now... I've gone ahead and matched the Seiyuu/VA color schemes to their character, or most prominent character. I haven't really looked at all the ages, however, but I will for the English VAs category, as I haven't yet finished with that category. I will let you know when I've completed my editing there, ok? If you could hold off editing in that category, I would greatly appreciate it.
No worries, however since you brought it up I'd like to mention that you might want to be a bit careful when adding the character colors to the English VA pages as I've had to edit several recently after it looked like you'd finished with them since either the secondary color was still the default blue or all the color coding was sitting outside of the navbox and creating essentially junk text at the bottom of the page.
Thank you for correcting, Fox. I usually cut-and-pasted code from their matching Character, so I don't know why that happened. You're more savvy than I when it comes to that sort of thing. I admire your skill, which prompts me to ask: are you interested in serving as Admin on the xxxHolic wiki? I know you love to edit, the wiki needs help, and I can grant you rights.
Ahh, thank you for the offer but unfortunately I really only edit on wikis for series I'm particularly keen on; I need a level of interest/passion to motivate me. However, I'm happy to help out here and there to code templates or layouts or something if you need anything in particular?
I was wondering if I could get your opinion on something. I just found out that one of the translators who has given us permission to use their work on here has translated the dramas and interviews from the eternal summer mooks.
However, after adding the translations to the mook pages I'm a little worried it makes the page too long/messy, especially when both the interview and drama are translated (as opposed to only one section translated). However, if I were to make a new tabber page to house the translations I'm not really sure what to call that page and how it would be categorized since the closest approximation I can think of is the individual chapter pages from the light novels but it's not really a great comparison.
Could I trouble you to have a look at the two existing mook pages and see what you think?
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well; but that still doesn't really help with the categorization of such pages since none of the existing categories would really suit. Unless of course we were to create new categories for them?
Tbh, I didn't understand what "mook" meant until your article explained it. As such, it seems to be another form of media altogether, so I think a new category is in order. I suggest listing it beneath "Books." Do you agree? Angelle 07:57, July 25, 2020 (UTC)
Hmm, they're not really a separate media form, they're still books it's just a different sub type (like guide books/pamphlets/setting books/etc.) and are treated like the other books so I didn't see that as an issue; I was talking about the categorization of the new sub-pages.
Ie. should we categorize them like the light novel chapters and just add on a category that specifies the book they originated from (as seen here) or would they be categorized like the subpages seen on episodes/movies/characters and have a cat for the book PLUS a cat to indicate what the page pertains to (like the Plot/Quotes/Relationships/etc.). Personally I think the former makes more sense because it won't over complicate things and the light novels are book related so it seems more appropiate to follow how they're setup (even if the specific subpages aren't quite identical).
Would you mind amending the Cat Tree per your first option so we can actually see what it looks like? Then, if it works for us both, we can leave it and continue doing the same for other mooks. If not, we can edit it so it does. Btw, I think adding the mooks is a great idea.
I'm not quite sure how to add such an arrangement to the tree so instead I'll just create the pages to properly illustrate what I meant, let me know how you think they look if you think the cats I've added are sufficient or if we need to discuss further.
Sorry but could you clarify what you mean by your last line? Adding the mooks to what sounds like a great idea?
The tabs look good. The only question I have is why the Image Gallery doesn't include the other tabs, just in case a reader wants to quickly jump to another section of the article. We usually add all tabs to all pages included, don't we? Otherwise, great job! Angelle 13:42, July 27, 2020 (UTC)
Ah, apologies that was just an oversight on my part not an intentional omission; thank you for pointing it out. But ok cool, since you agree that it looks alright I'll do the same for the vol.1 mook and the other volumes when I make their pages.
I just noticed the full cover for the ES guide book that you uploaded a few weeks ago (File:Tv animation guide book.jpg) was watermarked, and having tracked the source they've said very specifically on their tumblr that they don't allow people to repost their scans. I know we've talked about this issue before but I'd like to once again politely ask you to be more mindful with these things so that people are still willing to share their stuff with us in the future
in cleaning up the music/drama cd romanizations I've also been ensuring that all the categories related to music match our current incarnation of the category tree. In doing so I've encountered one minor issue: on the tree OLDCODEX and STYLE FIVE are listed as falling under "++++Musical Artists" but on their respective article pages they're instead tagged with "Bands".
Should we rectify the tree to match the articles, or the articles to match the tree?
I think "Musical Artists" is more appropriate and would prefer changing Bands to MAs. Music cleanup is looking good. Thanks for working on that and editing the Cat Tree, too! Angelle 17:43, June 28, 2020 (UTC)
during our recent changes regarding the use of macrons in character and actor names I realized that quite a few articles related to music and drama CDs have titles that feature various diacritical markings. A lot of them are instances of "ou" sounds compressed down to "ō", would you be opposed to me switching these over to the ou spelling instead? I personally have no issue with using macrons in cases where it indicates a double vowel (ū instead of uu), but if you'd prefer to limit our use of macrons on here I can switch those over as well (I already have to clean up a few since ī isn't considered a valid simplificaition of ii). Let me know what you think
Haalllooo! (ala Mrs. Doubtfire) Good to hear from you. The wiki is good. Fox and I have different views on things, but our mutual respect always leads us to discussion and eventual resolution. It's a good working partnership. I don't have a question about this wiki, but I notice over at Psycho-Pass that someone added a "Back to Top" button. Was that you? If so, thanks ever so much. I've been proscratinating on that particular task. If not, do you know who did so? I'd like to thank them. Summer is here in my half of the world and things are slowly getting back to normal in New York State. I actually have an appointment for a haircut next week! Woohoo! ;D
Anyway, how are you? I think you once said you worked in health care, eh? Do you see improvement on the COVID front? So much is happening in the US right now and it reminds me of the 60's in many ways. I was a kid then, but I remember the protest marches and the college sit-ins, including Kent State where a student from Long Island was killed by a National Guardsman. My parents were conservative and very nervous. I was curious, but the appeal of anarchy was nil for me. All I wanted was a just society, a good book, and some peace and quiet. I haven't changed much, except that the "book" is sometimes a "wiki."
Oh, there's no need to remind me. I remember vividly and thought I'd be able to cross that task off my To-Do list right away. Thing is, there's always something else that feels more urgent so it got put to the side. I'd love to add that to the Ouran wiki, too, if that's possible and only if you have the time. Thanks. Angelle 22:00, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
I just wanted to discuss the new “Products” category you’re currently adding to articles.
I’m assuming this is going to replace what’s currently listed as “Merch” as a category on the tree, otherwise it seems a bit redundant to have two categories which functionally mean the same thing. I’d also like it if we could come to an agreement on which articles should be labelled with the category before it is applied to anymore, as I don’t particular agree with some of the pages you’ve added it to so far; specifically the image galleries and the individual drama tracks.
-Fox 03:17, June 20, 2020 (UTC)
Gomen. I was about to message you about this when I saw your notification. I figure if we already have a cat called "Images of Products," that's the terminology we pre-decided instead of "Merch," especially since we've already started categorizing images as such. What I did was transfer what was under Merch to Products, but if it's off in your opinion, it can be altered. It would seem anything that was sold as a commodity would fall into the category, but that's moot.
I changed "Product" to "Products" since we've been using the plural in other areas. It also occurred to me that users have no way of seeing this info, so I added it to Top Nav. It didn't fit under Media, so I placed it under "In Real Life," which I think is valid. Do you think every commodity/page should be in the cat or just the subcats? And if you think there are items that don't belong, what's your thinking?
Again, it's a cat that can be broad or narrow.
I'm not fussy about the merch vs products, I just wanted to clarify to make sure we weren't going to end up with doubles. I agree that anything that's sold as a commodity ie. CDs/books/general goods should fall under the products cat (or its relevant sub-cat) but I think we'd previously decided against applying any product related categories to individual drama tracks/songs/image galleries and the like because those things themselves aren't strictly a physical product. Certain articles may have still had "Product" as a category lingering on them as they had yet to be edited since our prior discussions on the cat tree.
We previously established a section of the tree featuring Merch and its subcats but given the new name and your proposal of having it under IRL instead of media on the tree I'd like to suggest a few changes too:
++In Real Life
++++Free!-Eternal Summer- Products
++++High☆Speed！－Free! Starting Days－ Products
++++Free!-Timeless Medley- Products
++++Free!-Dive to the Future- Products
++++Free!-Road to the World- the Dream Products
We'd then apply the appropriate sub-cat to the relevant products which based on articles we have on the wiki so far I think should be: home media releases (blu-ray/dvd), music cds, light novels, books, drama cds & radio cds.
For example; Ever Blue Sounds would have "Free! Products" attached to it as a category, but not "Products" since it already has the sub-cat, and the individual track articles would have neither "Products" or "Free! Products" applied to them as outlined above.
Where do the Home Media Releases fit in? I've put them below your above-mentioned list "++In Real Life" for now as a separate +++GROUP, but don't know if that's the right spot for them. Do they get absorbed into the series-based product cats? I've added "+++Miscellaneous" for the other items listed currently. Sorry if you've outlined this and I don't get it. I thought I did, but now I'm confused.
Ah, as part of that arrangement I outlined earlier I figured the home releases would just be absolved into each season/movies relevant product category. It seemed more efficient than creating a tag specific to the dvds/blu-rays for each series as a sub-cat of each series product cat.
If you disagree though I'm not entirely opposed to having one big cat for all home video releases to be added in conjunction with the individual series product cat ie. the season 1 DVD articles would have both "Free! Products" & "Home Media Releases" as a categories. It just seemed a bit redundant though I guess since by definition a home video release is already covered as a "product", and I'm not really certain how it would sit nicely on the tree comparative to the other product categories.
I don't mind if a single article shares a bit of redundancy in categories, as long as both cats are seen as equal in their ability to clarify. Just let me know, specifically, how the appearance of the Cat Tree would change so I can edit it to its new configuration. Or you can do so yourself and I can take a look. It's up to you. Angelle 19:02, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
Ok I'll drop in the suggested layout I wrote above into the tree so we can both have a look and see what we think, though as I said earlier I'm not 100% set on where home media releases would sit in relation to the other cats but we'll see how it looks
Sorry, I forgot to say here that I've edited the tree. Please let me know what you think of the arrangment and whether there's anything you think should be changed/re-arranged. If you think it looks ok though I'll go ahead and apply the Home Media Release cat to the relevant pages
Ah, we can remove that from under the products; I just slipped it in there since it was under the HMR division in the previous versions but I realize now that creating a category for each product outside of the Books and CDs would be needlessly complicated. I'll remove it again
I was just wondering if you had a source for coach Will's surname being Wilson?
I managed to find a first name for coach Tsukamoto by checking his seiyuus website since he wasnt listed in the episode cast credits, but when i searched wills seiyuu and checked the credits i can only find him listed as Will (ウィル)
Here's where I found it: https://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/Jeff-Manning/
They do spell Albert's name incorrectly, so "Wilson" could be a stretch, but the website is legit, not fan-made. If you think the name needs a ref, please add it and if you think it's off-base, let's talk. Thanks! Angelle 20:00, June 6, 2020 (UTC)
BTVA is a decent site and not fan-made, but its still not strictly a canonical source related to KyoAni. I've scoured all Japanese sites related to DttF including KyoAni, wikipedia & the seiyuus website but can still only ever find a listing for Will with no surname. I'll dig out my English release blu-ray of DttF tomorrow and see whether he was spontaneously given a surname through CR/Funi for some reason; failing that I'd like to advocate for dropping the wilson part from the page if thats alright.
I'll look into it more, too. If neither of us can find official confirmation of any sort, I agree that we should drop it from the official article title, but maybe still mention it as a Trivia item. Angelle 18:23, June 7, 2020 (UTC)
it's been a bit over a week now, have you managed to find any official sources to verify the surname? I still haven't managed to find any, so if you haven't either do you agree that its time to remove the surname from the page name and add it as trivia instead?
I was just editing some of the pages for the Free! Novelize chapters and I noticed the note down the bottom about the summaries being compiled from a fan translation; would I be correct in assuming that the chapter/episode titles are therefore also based on this translation? If so, would you be alright with me changing them over to their romaji titles instead as per our previous decision regarding titles for songs/books/etc. without official translations?
Hi Fox. I took a look at the new chapter names for the Free! novelization. I apologize because I completely misunderstood your intention re: chapter titles. While I want to be consistent with the way we've listed other unofficial translations, I thought you were simply adding the Japanese names in (parens) somewhere on the page that lists Episodes, without renaming the page itself. How about we leave Music as it is and keep the titles for the Light Novels in English. Does that seem fair?
With all due respect I disagree. It seems inconsistent to treat the novels different in this regard when we follow the same convention for article titles for all other media types that do not have official romanized titles ie. books, songs, drama CDs, radio series, etc.
The reason being, as previously discussed when we first settled the matter regarding those other media titles, is that kanji can often have a broad range of interpretations depending on who is doing the translating. Some people do very direct & literal translations, while others take more liberty with the exact phrasing/words in order to preserve what they believe to be the meaning of the original kanji/phrase. This can lead to multiple different English names within the fandom which makes things confusing and is why people tend to refer to these things by their romaji titles as their is usual only a very small margin for error or confusion.
A good example of this that I used to illustrate the point previously is Haru's song, アオノカナタ. The romaji is Ao no Kanata, since its given in katakana this is an immutable fact; in terms of translating the "Ao no" part is very straightforward but the "Kanata" part of the title can have more than one meaning. The person who translated the lyrics and allowed us to use them here on the wiki decided to in this case translate it as "Distance" but kanata is usually more commonly given as "Beyond", thus the song could either be titled "The Blue Distance" or "The Blue Beyond" in English depending on the translators preference.
Therefore, if we wish to keep our system consistent I think it makes more logistical sense to label novel chapters that have kanji titles with no official translation given by KyoAni with their romaji titles on articles.
I feel responsible for this misunderstanding and apologize for that, but feel even more strongly about this than about the punctuation of series. This, because I want to honor the translator completely and that means including their translated Episode names. If we "pick and choose" how much of a translation we accept or reject (whether in text or lyrics), it feels disrespectful to the translator. That's the last thing I want to do, even if it means "breaking" our own rules in specific cases.
I know you believe in honoring outside sources and I'm still waiting to hear back from Usagi's Playplace, but would like to honor that translator's Episode titles as the page names until either they agree with using romaji for episode titles (and the resulting page names) or an official translation is published. I suggest adding the romaji as part of the Main article (in parens).
I'm sure we can come up with a mutually acceptable solution for this.
Before I respond, did you see my response to your comment on my content & permissions blog the other day? If not here it is because it is extremely relevant to everything I'm about to say/this conversation as a whole.
I'll be blunt and say straight up I'm particularly resolute about this issue, just as I am about the series punctuation, and if anything the rationale you just gave has made me more adamant. Not only am I myself a rookie translator for the past several years, but I am good friends with and work very closely with translators for other series and wikis I'm involved in. As such, I know extensively their feelings about certain issues when it comes to not only their own translation work but translating content as a whole.
-Firstly, the vast majority of translators layout their translations posts in the exact same manner I try and arrange article names and article content; which is to say Romaji title as the post header followed by the kanji title and the english translation in brackets underneath the romaji. Depending on the nature of the material being translated they will then also provide the original kanji used, followed by the romaji, and then the translation last. This is to follow the order of officially given information (kanji) first -> followed by unofficial translation with little room for error (romaji) -> with the content that is considered the most ambiguous and up for interpretation (english) last. As such, we are not "picking and choosing" or rejecting their translation as the info is still being presented very clearly on the page, it's simply a matter of priority and consistent categorization.
-Pretty much every translator I know refers to the content by its romaji title as they explicitly know that its what the majority of the fan base are going to know and refer to it as. This is also because they recognise that in all likelihood they are not the only person to have translated the material and in most cases their respective translations will not be identical so referring to the less ambiguous romaji is less confusing.
-If we were to follow your system of using the English titles how do you propose we fairly decide which translation to go with? Do we go with the translator who grants permission first? The one who releases/released the translated content first? What if new material was released and I were to translate the title myself but then someone at a later date releases the content fully translated but they have a conflicting translation for the title?
-Lastly, you say you want to honor the translator and do not want to disrespect them by how we use their translations but you have yourself admitted that you were using their translated content without waiting for them to expressly grant you permission. Yes, translators do not like people meddling with their content (this mostly relates to rewording things however), but using their content without their blessing is by far the most disrespectful action in their eyes. Luckily in this case Usagi's Playplace already granted us permission when I messaged them on tumblr early last year, but you were unaware of this fact when you chose to use their work on here.
I too would like to come up with a mutually acceptable solution, however at this point if neither of us is able to persuade the other we may have to contact Ty as our manager to be a neutral point in this discussion.
Thank you for graciously agreeing; I assume its ok now for me to go ahead and amend the chapter titles for the high speed novels to match this decision?
Also, I was a little apprehensive about how I laid out the English title with the kanji title on the article when switching the article name over to romaji, do you think making it larger would be better? Currently its the same size as the rest of the text and could be easily missed given the pages aren't formatted like other articles are. I could take the sentence with the English & kanji and add the == == either side to make it section header & thus significantly larger, but also add a command at the bottom of the article so that no table of contents pops up given how short the pages are. (if I haven't explained this particularly well I can make the changes on one as a test for you to see what I mean)
Idk I just thought based on your previous concerns about respecting the translator it might be nice to make the translated title a bit more obvious in the article than I've currently made it on the novel chapter pages
As for High Speed, yes. As for the English title with kanji being larger and more visible, absolutely yes, however you see fit. And if you're saying add linkage intra-article between eps, YES. You're the wiki tech/translator, after all.
Now that I think about it, perhaps pages using translations should look similar, don't you think? At least in how the translation appears in the article. Say, in Music, so it's more visible there, too.
Ok I'll swap over the HS chapter titles, and I'll edit one of the chapter articles for novelize so we can evaluate how it looks, for linkage between articles I could add a header tab above the banner that links to the previous and next chapters akin to the one used on song and drama track articles?
As for trying to standardize pages that use translations I think that could prove a little difficult unless we were to directly copy the translation text word for word so it looks like the drama track pages? Song pages with lyrics though should probably stay as is (imo) because lyrics have a set layout specified in the lyric booklet, as opposed to drama/chapter transliterations which are freehand at the discretion of the translator.
I think there's already a note somewhere about translator credits as references but yes we do; wherever someone's translation is used we reference it and similarly if an image was provided by a scanner/scanlator as opposed to an official source we credit them as well.
Edit: I edited the chapter 00 article of novelize with the enlarged title in the article text combined with the tab to link to other episodes in the novel; please let me know what you think